Jason Hartman is joined by Dean Reuter: General Counsel, Vice President, and Director of the Practice Groups for the Federalists Society For Law and Public Policy. The two discuss the pros and cons of Federalism at the state level. They go into whether or not we’ll be seeing more partnerships between giant tech companies and government. They look at concerns about privacy and technology and what the government should be doing.
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Jason Hartman 1:00
It’s my pleasure to welcome Dean Reuter. He is general counsel, Vice President and Director of the practice groups of the Federalist Society for law and public policy. He’s a fellow at the National Security Institute at George Mason University’s Antonin Scalia School of Law. He has served in two federal government agencies, including Deputy Inspector General, responsible for policing the use of federal funds granted and contracted through those agencies. As such, he helped conduct and oversee criminal investigations across the country. He’s the author of three books, including Liberty’s nemesis, the unchecked expansion of the state, confronting terror 911 and the future of American national security and his latest book, the hidden Nazi The Untold Story of America’s deal with the devil. Dean, welcome. How are you? I’m fine. It’s great to be on with you. Thanks for having me on. It’s good to have you. So we would be remiss if we didn’t talk about Current events. But I think interestingly, they tie in pretty well with two of your books Liberty’s Nemesis and the hidden Nazi, because not many people are talking about this yet, but I think we need to be thinking about it. There’s a massive expansion of the state underway. You know, don’t let a good crisis go to waste. Right. So what are your thoughts on where we stand now and where we’re going?
Dean Reuter 2:24
Well, you’re exactly right that two of those books do tie in, there’s that one, which is basically a critique of the administrative state the expansion of government or power in traditional normal times, without any crisis involved. The hidden Nazi is a book about World War Two, focusing on one particular Nazi general but I spend a lot of ink in that book, talking about how the Nazi regime was established incrementally as it turns out, bit by bit by bit, and I’m never anxious to compare any regime with what became the Nazi regime. And the Holocaust because you never want to diminish what happened during the Holocaust and what happened in World War Two. By the same token, you need to be aware of what’s happening and look for those subtle expansions of government power, and make sure that as a crisis abate those governmental powers contract, which they
Jason Hartman 3:21
rarely do,
Dean Reuter 3:23
you rarely get a complete reset button. I agree with that. Jason. I mean, a lot of times you’ll see especially in times of war, or some sort of national emergency, you will see a contraction and expansion of government power at the federal level, the state level, the local level, whatever it is, or wherever it is, and then afterwards, you might get something of a reset but you rarely go back to to absolute starting point before the crisis. Well, I’m
Jason Hartman 3:47
not I’m not sure he said it this way. But he said something to the effect of nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program. Milton Friedman, right.
Dean Reuter 3:57
Sounds like also the words of Ronald Reagan. Yeah, well, yeah. He probably
Jason Hartman 4:00
parroted Freeman. Freeman. So yeah, so we are seeing this big expansion. One of them that concerns me quite greatly is the idea that and China’s already doing it, of course, but they don’t care. The idea that government will be of course in partnership with the tyrannical tech companies, namely Google, the scariest company on earth and Facebook being the second scariest company, just my opinion, maybe Monsanto could be number three. Anyway, I digress. But you know, if the idea that they’re going to track people with their their smartphones, and they will know just the same way they know how much traffic there is on a road by how many people are congregating together, you know, they know if those phones are close to each other. And what are we going to see are we going to see the police coming to bus stop a meeting soon. This is really quite scary.
Dean Reuter 4:57
It is an IT this before this crisis before the corona virus crisis that is COVID-19. tech companies and governments were able to obtain unbelievable amounts of information on you and your family members based on your use of your computer. And of course, your use of your phone. The phone, of course will track your location, not just where you are, but how high you are,
Jason Hartman 5:21
what floor of a building you’re in, so they can tell whether you’re in front of Starbucks in the mall or on the third floor in front of Kohl’s so they can send you the right coupon. And that seems like you know, under ideal circumstances, a great use of your information because you’re being made aware of of opportunities, but it can be put as you’ve described, it can be put to terrible uses. And there’s already a move to get us closer to a digital cryptocurrency, one sponsored by the government and the central bank. You know there I’ve seen several articles referring to our currency and Chinese currency that you know, it’s dirty, if can spread the virus. And that’s dangerous. I mean, everything always is in the interest of public safety. That’s a good cover, you know, not not always untrue. Of course, you know, if we don’t have spending privacy, that’s another very big concern. I mean, if the government knows everything you buy and how you spend your money, and they know where you’re located, I mean, what’s last?
Dean Reuter 6:21
Well, and you made some good points in there. In that comment. When we did the book Liberty’s nemesis, we were in touch with lots of people in focus groups, things like that. And that’s on the administrative state the expansion of governmental power through the fourth brands known as the administrative state, the alphabet agencies you think of in the amount of control they wield. what’s clear is that people in the public are very skeptical of government regulations and governmental power. But when it comes to health and safety, they have a different view of regulations. They’re more accepting, almost in a knee jerk sort of way. So anything that is packaged, as in the interest of government, health, or government safety or national Security doesn’t quite get a free pass, but it gets less scrutiny to public than it otherwise would so into my mind that that test is exactly the sorts of things you need to be scrutinizing because that’s where a government might take liberties, so to speak. So there is literally no question about it.
Jason Hartman 7:18
Well tell us about some of the parallels to what went on in World War Two.
Dean Reuter 7:22
Well, so in my book, the hidden Nazi it’s, it’s really a story about the hunt for one Nazi SS general who was despicable help to make the Holocaust possible, then let all of Germany’s secret weapons ended up making a deal with the United States to save his own skin. But conventional history reports that he committed suicide at the end of the war, so nobody’s written about him. That’s what the books about but it’s a great read. I recommend it. You can get it online without having to go to a bookstore. But one thing I described in there and I studied is how Hitler came to power and then how the Holocaust happened. How was it that such a highly cultured, highly advanced this The German society went so completely off the rails. And these are things you want to be looking for in today’s world. It’s, it’s the gradual accumulation of power, the gradual loss of liberty, starting first with one class of people Jews, and it started, I wouldn’t say benignly. But it started it was incremental. You know, first, Jewish people can’t be in certain universities, they’re not admitted to certain universities. And you think, well, that’s terrible. But then you realize, well, now my son and my non Jewish son can get into the university, he’s got a better chance. So you see all this contraction of liberties for one group and an expansion of opportunities for another. Anytime somebody is going to make a profit or have an advantage over another because of a government policy. You’ve got those interests seeking behaviors that just give rise to the accumulation of power?
Jason Hartman 8:56
Yeah, well, that’s been a big point of discussion in the university. system which is ridiculous on its own right. But, you know, we could talk about that for hours, of course, but that may be changing, you know, there’s some definitely some good things going to come out of this crisis. That’s my prediction. And one of them is going to be some loosening of this super high tuition costs problem and, and things like that, because I don’t think you can justify charging people, you know, 3050 grand a year or even more to, to sit in front of a computer and take online classes to get a college degree. You know, I think that’s, that’s gonna, that’s going to shift the power. I think people are going to see you know, to some degrees as the emperor has no clothes there. But
Dean Reuter 9:41
I think that’s right. I think that’s right. I think it’s gonna be a total reevaluation. And, you know, it’s interesting to me how many students are studying from home now paid room and board weren’t being reversed
Jason Hartman 9:51
in the universities aren’t giving it back either. It’s usable? Yeah.
Dean Reuter 9:55
Yeah. No, that’s exactly right. It really tells you what the motivations are there, but I agree. they’re hurting. They’re running
Jason Hartman 10:00
a hedge fund. You can’t blame them. They’re just greedy capitalists, like everybody else.
Dean Reuter 10:06
Yeah, what’s a bit maddening? Because most of them managed to operate under a non profit. I know
Jason Hartman 10:12
but they’re really a hedge fund their real estate.
Dean Reuter 10:15
With some very highly paid well benefited employees, people who have great benefits ridiculous. Yeah.
Jason Hartman 10:22
Anyway, the tie ins with World War Two is what we’re talking about. Sorry.
Dean Reuter 10:26
That’s okay. I’m one of the distinctions in World War Two, of course, an absolute loss of liberty with the draft. And both the the tremendous loss of life I think, you know, we’ve passed now 10,000 deaths here in the United States. World War Two, by the end of the war cost the lives of over well over 400,000 Americans, there’s no way I think, really to tell where the virus ends at this point. But it will be a real tragedy if we get to those World War Two type numbers in terms of loss of life and of course, worldwide, World War Two cost about 60 million lives. So just staggering in terms of impact and fought on every continent.
Jason Hartman 11:02
Yeah, it really is. So what were some of the deals with the devil, as the subtitle of your book says,
Dean Reuter 11:09
so well, thanks for asking Jason, Hans canler is that as the devil we’re talking about. He’s the guy who delivered the rocket team to the United States, we wanted the technology. Towards the end of the war, everyone knew Germany would lose the war. They had these highly advanced rockets that were going to be important and help the Americans win the cold war against the Soviets. We wanted that rocket team Hans komla, who helped make the Holocaust possible was in charge of the rocket team and was in a position to deliver them to the United States. And we show in the book that he did exactly that, in order to try and erase his past and save his own life. The problem with that theory is conventional history says he committed suicide at the end of the war. But as we saw in later chapters of the book, he didn’t actually commit suicide, he surrendered to the US Army and we’ve got all the documents to prove all of that. So it’s it reads like a nonfiction I read like a fiction thriller, but it’s a nonfiction historical account of this man in the United States.
Jason Hartman 12:10
I mean, obviously there was a lot of oppression during World War Two, but it wasn’t just what was going on. In Europe. It was what was going on in the us too. Of course, you mentioned the draft, where there are other things under you know, like the sort of similar to the patriot act at post 911 that were instituted in the US
Dean Reuter 12:30
there were and some of them were focused on particular people. You probably heard them at the core Matsu case that was the Supreme Court weighing in on the internment of Japanese. Yeah. So so we had that there was rationing. That was not voluntary. There was some voluntary rationing but there were things you weren’t allowed to buy things you couldn’t buy. There were for enforced curfews, blackouts, and things like that. And a lot of I think one of the parallels was just a lot of fear of the Dean Reuter. We can look back on it. And know perfectly well what happened and consequently what didn’t happen. But if you’re living in live, we were patrolling our shores expecting an invasion, a ground invasion. We had the US submarines surrounding the United States, looking for enemy vessels. And nobody knew whether that would happen or not whether that would come to pass, but it was feared. And the fact that it didn’t happen now makes it maybe seem in retrospect, silly, but there was real apprehension and real anxiety and of course, in Europe, you had bombs going off 100 300 and 500, a week in London and Southampton and major European cities everywhere. So those people lived in absolute terror, no question about it. Well, what other things should we be concerned about based on current events, give our listeners some tips as to what people in the US and around the world need to watch out for need to push back against when it comes to their governments? Well, I would say it’s in the United States in particular is to look out For aggressive use of power at the federal, state and local level, people often focus on what’s happening at the federal level. We’re getting a little bit of a lesson here, as President Trump says he’s relying on the states to deal with the crisis. And you see a lot of edicts from governors, and sometimes even more local officials describing what is acceptable and unacceptable what is in sometimes criminal and non criminal behavior now of citizens.
Jason Hartman 14:28
Well, yeah, but being like is Trump are actually quite a bit of credit for the way he’s done that. And, you know, of course, it is looking at central planning is pretty efficient. I mean, as the Chinese right, you can just sort of do things do them quickly and do them nationally. But, you know, he’s seems like he’s got a bit of a states rights mentality there, which is more libertarian. I think. Before you answer, though, just one more comment on it. The states can’t, you know, they can’t overdo what’s constitutionally protected by Federal charter, except in times of emergency, of course, and that changes everything. But go ahead and comment on that now.
Dean Reuter 15:08
Well, I’m glad you said what you said, because I don’t want to be misunderstood. I think he’s doing exactly the right thing in recognizing the power of the states to deal with this, and then standing by to assist them as the federal government. But I agree with you entirely. This is a level that’s a problem that’s handled best at this point at the state level, because what’s happening in New York is different than what’s happening in Wyoming. And what’s happening to Connecticut is different than what’s happening in New Mexico. So you need different sorts of responses based on your population density and local circumstances. And that’s one of the beauties of the US Constitution is it puts power at the state level, you know, for the past 100 years or so, we’ve sacrificed power at the state level of it as it’s gone to the federal level. So now you see it being pushed down to the state level and what I agree with you is a proper manner,
Jason Hartman 15:56
right? And so philosophically, I agree with that, but practice Some philosophy often differ if you ask me. And, you know, the problem is states don’t have border control. The country, at least in theory, maybe not in the south, but he theory does have border control. So when you have something like a pandemic, you can stop people at the borders and say, Look, you can’t come in without a quarantine or can’t come at all right? If you’re in a hotspot country, but you can cross state lines. So if I live in Florida, for example, if the governor of florida says, you know, this and that I can still go to Georgia, it’s right there, or Alabama.
Dean Reuter 16:36
Well, that’s exactly right. And I’m in Northern Virginia, just a stone’s throw from Maryland and West Virginia and the district. So I state lines are well within my reach. But you’re right. There are some very good benefits of federalism that is power at the state level. And there are some drawbacks. So what do we do about that? I mean,
Jason Hartman 16:51
how do we reconcile it in the case especially you have a virus.
Dean Reuter 16:56
So what what, what I think is most important in this circumstances pretty much where you started out Jason and that’s, you know, let the Government Act Be mindful of it look for overreach, things that don’t feel right to you make your government justify what it’s doing. And in the end, make sure the power resets to what it was beforehand, make sure we don’t have any lingering remnants of power at the federal government level or the state level. This will be one of those unusual circumstances where a crisis will be abated, and the government power might be enhanced. And I don’t mean visa v. The federal government, I mean, state power these people.
Jason Hartman 17:33
Yeah. And you know, it’s an interesting at least thought experiment, if nothing else to say, look, the First Amendment, the most arguably the most important Amendment guarantees the right to peaceably assemble, but we can’t assemble right now. It’s illegal. I mean, in some places, they’ve literally said, You can’t have a meeting with more than two people. Unless it’s like your your children right couple. Then it could be maybe For, but wow, if you want to go protest something today, it’s illegal. Right? constitution has been overruled. And I don’t, I don’t really disagree with the government right now. I actually agree with them and in many cases, but how long do you let that go? How long is it before we need to have a rally? We need to address our governments. Someone needs to march on Washington, right? Some group of people and you can’t do it. It’s literally illegal.
Dean Reuter 18:28
Well, and that is the key question, I think at this point going forward. And and it’s important to remember it you asked that question, it’s about your liberty. It’s about your civil liberties, about your freedom, but it’s also about Americans economic viability. This is not a cost free exercise, the idea of shutting shutting down major parts of the country, right.
Jason Hartman 18:47
Let’s address that one. I know economics is not your thing, necessarily, but I certainly have some thoughts about it. I’ve many times wonder if the response isn’t bigger than the problem itself. You know, this seems like a pretty tense Temporary problem, flu season is always a temporary thing. This is obviously different in many ways than the regular flu. But it’s still conceptually the same idea. And maybe the curve is flattened in a month. We’ve still got these lingering things, the spending, the bailouts, the this will affect us for years, maybe decades to come.
Dean Reuter 19:22
Yeah, let me respond to that by dodging your question directly.
Jason Hartman 19:25
You can act like a politician.
Dean Reuter 19:30
But I’ll say something I think is very close to our situation now. And it’s what I was in government at the time, and this is a run up to y2k. For your youngest listeners. This is when the century turned over. And there was a lot of concern that computers would crash because they wouldn’t they wouldn’t recognize the four digit turnover of the year. They don’t even know what y2k is some people living well. That’s true. It’s true, but but the point is, there was a great deal of concern alarm even that systems would fail, airplanes would fall out of the sky. The power grids will collapse, all our infrastructure would fail. And there was a long run up to this. And we spent billions and billions of dollars. I know this because I was in the government doing remediation efforts where we hired thousands and thousands, millions of consultants to go back and change all these computer systems tweak them. And at the critical moment, nothing happened. And you know, as well as I do that there’s a rate of human error. If there were going to be problems, and we tried to fix all of them. There’s no way we fixed all of them. So if y2k really was a problem, some of these remediation efforts would have failed. And we would have seen some signs of that we would have seen an airplane fall out of the sky, we would have seen a dam open or close improperly on y2k, some problems some some power grid fail, nothing happened. Which leads me to believe which gets to your point of is the cure worse than the problem? It clearly was in y2k, but we can only say that with hindsight. That’s the vexing things about these major decisions. How much do you spend? How much do you react facing? What is Dean Reuter?
Jason Hartman 21:09
See, the problem is like I always say you can’t hear the dogs that don’t bark. In post y2k. Many of the non believers said, See, nothing happened. This was total media sensationalism. It was overblown. It was an excuse for crony capitalism as an excuse to spend money. And others say, the reason it was a non event is because we fixed it before it became an event. And I guess nobody really knows the answer. Right?
Dean Reuter 21:39
Well, my really my response to that is my response to that is there’s no way we could have fixed the problem so completely because that no problems manifested themselves on that on the day. So that’s my response to that, but you’re right. The dynamic is the same whether it’s Coronavirus, y2k or Google warming it’s like you see a problem you see what you define as a problem? It’s like what is the appropriate level of response? Right? And and then after all the money spent the victors are always free to say it’s only because we we went to these extreme measures that we tackled this problem and sometimes that’s unknowable unprovable
Jason Hartman 22:17
I agree completely. Well, what else do you want to share with people as we wrap it up, just maybe anything I haven’t asked you about? Whether it be your experience at the inspector general’s office, or you know any of your books.
Dean Reuter 22:28
And well, I guess I’d get back to my my my wrote most recent book, the hidden Nazi, I do think it’s, it has larger lessons in it. This is diverting a little bit from from what we’ve been discussing, but you mentioned the younger generations who don’t know about y2k. You know, when I was growing up, everybody knew somebody who served in World War Two or knew somebody who had family that died in the Holocaust. That’s just not the case anymore. The lessons about World War Two in the Holocaust in particular are now just textbook exercises and one of the reasons I wrote This book was to try and bring that story alive, including faces, including people, both victims and perpetrators so that younger people would have some, what I felt like would be a more accessible information about how the evil that man can perpetrate against fellow man but also the heroics that men can undertake in service of each other.
Jason Hartman 23:23
Yeah, absolutely. Good stuff. give out your website.
Dean Reuter 23:25
It’s Dean Reuter books is where you can find me on Facebook Dean Reuter books. And my latest book is the hidden Nazi it’s on there as well.
Jason Hartman 23:32
Yeah. And then also the Federalist Society at said soc.org. Is that correct? That’s exactly right. Fantastic. Well, Dean, thank you for joining us,
Dean Reuter 23:41
Jason, thank you for so much for having me on. It’s been a lot of fun. My pleasure.
Jason Hartman 23:49
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