On this Flashback Friday episode, Jason Hartman interviews author and leadership expert Doug Conant. Doug talks about his book, Touch Points: Creating Powerful Leadership Connections in the Smallest of Moments, co-authored with Mette Norgaard, about the interactions that should be viewed as the greatest leadership opportunities in business or touch points. He also explains the “contribution profile,” which is asking, “How can I help?”
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Welcome to this week’s edition of flashback Friday, your opportunity to get some good review by listening to episodes from the past that Jason has hand picked to help you today in the present, and propel you into the future. Enjoy.
Announcer 0:14
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Jason Hartman 1:03
Welcome to today’s show. This is Jason Hartman your host. And as you may or may not know, every 10th show, we kind of do a special tradition here that originated with my creating wealth show where we do a topic that is actually off topic on purpose, something just to do with general life and more successful living. And that’s exactly what we’re going to do today with our special guest. Again, 10th show is off topic. And it is very much intentional, just for personal enrichment. And I hope you enjoy today’s show, and we will be back with our guests in just a moment. It’s my pleasure to welcome Doug Conant to the show. He is the author of touch points. And he’s got some amazing insights that may seem rather obvious to most people. However, there are always new ways that we can apply them and be more effective in life and leadership. And I think you’ll hear a real transformative message here today. Doug, welcome. How are you?
Doug Conant 2:01
I’m great. Thank you for having me.
Jason Hartman 2:03
Well, the pleasure is all mine. Well, it gives us a little bit of information about your background, and then let’s dive into touch points.
Doug Conant 2:10
Well, my background is really come up in the corporate world I had less than two years ago, I retired after over 10 years as Chief Executive Officer of the Campbell Soup company. Prior to that I spent a career in consumer products with General Mills craft in the bisco. And wrapped up my career with Campbell Soup company in Camden, New Jersey right outside of Philadelphia. Along the way, I’ve been heavily involved in all kinds of corporate activity, but a lot of nonprofit activity. So my focus today is and my focus going forward, quite frankly, is all about helping to improve the quality of leadership in the 21st century, sharing my experiences and trying to encourage people to lean into the notion of being more effective as, as leaders in everyday life and your your tenure at Campbell’s Soup as CEO started in 2001. Correct? Yes, January 8 2001. Seems like yesterday.
Jason Hartman 3:12
But it’s actually quite a few years ago. Campbell’s is such an iconic brand, you know, for well over 100 years, you know, history. Were there any big challenges when you came aboard? I haven’t followed the history of that company too much. But what were what were some of the things and you probably incorporated them into the touchpoints book and philosophy, I assume?
Doug Conant 3:31
Yes. A lot of the thinking that’s captured in our book touchpoints was, was was born out of my experience with Campbell Soup company. Campbell Soup company is an iconic company, it’s about $10 billion in sales with 20,000 employees, product sold, and 120 countries. And we were very committed to having an enduring business proposition when our company was over 140 years old, only had 11 CEOs over those hundred and 40 years, I was the 11th. And it was a troubled company. We had lost half our market value on one year, which is unheard of by a food, a large food company. And we had a very toxic work environment as businesses falling apart for a variety of reasons. employees were very disaffected. And I was challenged to come in and rebuild, make sure we have the right strategy and the organization top to bottom, which is what we did. As we did that touch points became an obvious critical part of what I had to do. I had to reconnect people to this notion that as a community, we could do something special, we could focus on winning in the marketplace, but also creating a winning workplace where they could thrive and prosper. And, and as a result, over a decade we went we dramatically improved our marketplace performance but more importantly, we created a highly engaged culture. Where every employee felt valued and challenged to do their best work. And they felt as if people the company had their back. And not a better not a better feeling when you’re working in a tough environment is, is to feel like you’re not going in alone.
Jason Hartman 5:16
In just to get a little background on Campbell’s how many employees and I’m curious, was that workforce unionized? Probably unionized, I assume, right?
Doug Conant 5:25
Well, if we have 20,000 employees globally, there were pockets of union activity. But by and large, no, we weren’t heavily unionized. And we were focused on meeting the needs of our employees to such an extent that they never felt the need to unionize. And And by and large, we did that, but we did have some union activity. And we, and we navigated through that, typically pretty effectively, in my decade there.
Jason Hartman 5:52
And you say that touch points, is really you know, that, by the way, the subtitle of the book is creating powerful leadership connections in the smallest of moments. And you say that it’s a, it’s a blinding glimpse of the obvious, but maybe not really that obvious, is it?
Doug Conant 6:07
Well, no, you know, we today, most employees, most people in general, feel as if they’re getting a sip of water from the fire hydrant of life. They’re having 200 to 400 interactions a day, either via email, Twitter, text messaging, phone calls, people stopping by their office, and the list goes on and on and on. And as a result they struggle with how do I navigate this crazy life? And that’s a good question. And so as I go around the country, this issue is, seems to be the biggest issue of the day in most corporate cultures, and quite honestly, and in the nonprofit in the federal government sector, to where these people are overwhelmed with all these interactions. And so what we’ve tried to do with touch points is say, Don’t think of the 400 interactions you have think of the next interaction you have? And how can you be more effective in the moment, they are so effective, that you’re able to be more efficient with it as well and more helpful to the other person. So we created this notion of touch points. And we said, you know, there’s three things you need to do, you need to listen intently to what’s coming at you in the moment, you need to make sure you can understand the context of that decision. And then you need to help the person advance. So we taught challenge people bring out How can I help mentality work, listen, carefully, frame the issue and advance it. Listen for an advance Listen, for instance. And then when the when the interaction is over, you say how to go. And what we have found is when people just focus on the moment, and try and be helpful, in an honest way, they can get traction with their life again, and they get traction with their co workers, we have found that if you can just advance three to five more interactions in a significantly more healthy way, today than you did yesterday, out of the 200 to 400, you have three to five more interactions managed in a more healthy way, you can change your contribution profile in your place of work or at home. And and that’s what we encourage people to do to take this simple approach and apply it every day in a disciplined way. And and they can start to lead a much more fulfilling life.
Jason Hartman 8:29
One of the phrases you just mentioned, just even having that phrase occurred to one oneself is is probably a huge step forward. And it is the phrases contribution profile. Very interesting.
Doug Conant 8:44
Now what it’s all about, how can I help if you were to go to my website at Conant leadership calm. I’ve profiled I just picked 10 touch points in my life, where somebody said the right thing, the right way at just the right time. And I carry it with me today. In fact, of all the education I’ve had in college, graduate school continuing education courses, they’ve been wonderful, and I’m a better person for it. But quite frankly, those 10 touch points, which one I added all up, take it and I say all the words together, it’s about 40 seconds, or it’s about six words a touch point, those small touch points can help. Aren’t they actually guide my life? One of those touch points was only four words, how can I help? It occurred to me when I was fired from a job and the outplacement guy every time he answered the phone, he would say Hello, this is Neil McKenna. How can I help? And since that day, which was Gosh, was 27 years ago, I have gone into every interaction thing in life in my mind saying Hello, I’m Doug Conant, how can I help? How can I contribute? And the more I focused on raising my contribution profile, the more I flourished in my work experience. And so I just think encourage other people to try to do the same thing.
Jason Hartman 10:02
Oh, well, that’s those are that’s a great question to ask, you know, it’s a great context to just come from that point of view of the How can I help point of view? Can you give us any examples of, you know, maybe an interaction where someone might do this and increase their contribution profile. And, and you know, that, when you mentioned that, when you were talking about that, it made me think of a few key words and in relationships that I have, and how, literally even a text message to someone saying the right thing at the sensibly right time makes a whole difference in the relationship or the friendship for years to come. It’s, it’s incredible.
Doug Conant 10:41
Yeah, Jason, it’s an amazing thing. The best way for people to grasp the concept is that when when I’m when I’m speaking with an audience, we get to a point very early in the presentation, where I just ask them to close their eyes. And think about someone who’s had a profound influence on them in their life, a teacher, a coach, occasionally, a boss, typically, it isn’t a parent, a grandparent and Aunt, an uncle or a good friend. And I asked them to close their eyes and imagine that that person is sitting there with them now. And I asked them to think about a moment where that person was totally there for them, where they were listening carefully to what was going on. And they were totally there for them. And they found a way to say just the right thing, and just the right way at just the right time. And then I encourage the people in the audience to turn to the person next to them, and share that experience with them. And then they encourage the other person to share back takes about two minutes. Everyone has a story about, for example, my story about how can I help, and I’m sure you have your story, everybody has a story. And and then I challenge these people I say, now you that is the essence of touch points. And my challenge to you is to try and be that person for the people with whom you live and work. And as people reflect on that, they get it and they get it in the marrow of their bones, because they’ve lived, they’ve had people that have had that kind of profound impact on them in small moments, that big, long lectures, none of us, most of us don’t have those kinds of experiences get great traction in our lives. It’s those people that were there for us and said just the right thing. It’s just the right time and just the right way. And I just challenged people to be more like that with the people with whom you live and work. And you don’t need to go any further than they get it. And then the challenge is to bring the discipline to it to try and behave that way. A little more today than you did yesterday. You don’t have to get all the way too bright. But you do have to do a little better today than you did yesterday.
Jason Hartman 12:50
Just that that constant progress, that movement in the right direction, can make such a difference. Do you profile in the book, any sample interactions, like it would be good to sort of compare the wrong way to do it and the right way to do it type of thing? If you can, I know I’m probably putting you on the spot. So I apologize. But But you know, if you can think of an example, I think it would be helpful for the listeners.
Doug Conant 13:12
I can I have the 10 that I have that are sampled in my and one of my videos at my website at Conant leadership calm was one of them was a horrible example. I mean, without negative experience, all touchpoints are not positive experiences. In one case, I went into work one day, I’d been working for this company for nearly 10 years. And the acting Vice President of Marketing had me come to his office when I came to work that day. And he said, your job has been eliminated, you need to be out of here by noon. And he couldn’t look me in the eye. And and I hear here, you know, I had nearly 10 years of my career was over in a snap. And I had to go home with my wife, my two small children, my one very large mortgage, screaming every bit the victim. And in that moment, I was devastated and I was bitter. And that was a negative touch point. That same day, I was sent to an outplacement counselor who I first said I’m not going to go see him. I was so angry. But then I called him later in the day because I realized I was really having trouble processing all this. And it will and was my friend Neil McKenna guy who went on to become my friend who said Neil McKenna, how can I help to come right over? I want to hear all about it. Let’s get to work on this right away. And I had one of the best experiences of my life. The same day, I had one of the worst experiences of my career. Those were two touch points. The first touch point has influenced how I’ve dealt with people in difficult situations for the balance of my lifetime. Or I have said I will never treat anyone as poorly as I felt treated in that moment. And it has guided me in a direction of being worthless. raffle still being tough line design issues, but tender hearted with people. And then the second interaction with Neil McKenna, has has, as I’ve shared earlier in this conversation has influenced how I try and bring out How can I help attitude to everything I do. So those are two small interactions that I had with others. One was negative one was positive, that had been had a guiding influence in my life.
Jason Hartman 15:25
Very good. Very good.
Doug Conant 15:27
Just build on that number. Yeah. As a CEO, I was always looking for how can I connect with people in a positive way, and reinforce things that we’re doing right? Because in corporate cultures, you’re pretty much trained to find everything wrong. I can find a busted number in a spreadsheet. Like, like no one else. But you know, we need to also celebrate what’s going right. So every day when I was CEO of Campbell, virtually every day, I would write 10 to 20, handwritten, thank you notes, no more than 50 words, typically, to employees all around the world who, who had done something, right, who had delivered a project on time and on budget, or who had done some extraordinary thing when that when we hit the Japanese tsunami or the tsunami in the Philippines, or whatever it was. And, and so I would send out six days a week 10 to 20 notes over 10 years. When I retired, we added all the notes up. And it turned out, I turned on over 30,000 notes to employees, and we only had 20,000 employees.
Jason Hartman 16:34
More than once
Doug Conant 16:35
I had them in a personal way. It was handwritten, I didn’t want them thinking some CEO was having somebody emailed them for him. And and I guess the PostScript to that, and and people felt like I was connecting with them, I was paying attention. I was reinforcing the behaviors that we were looking to get in the company in terms of performance. They were not gratuitous. But they were saying what we’re paying attention we value what you’re doing. The more I leaned into that, the more I saw employees lean into their work, and and feel as if they were valued. So that that was a simple way that I created, touch positive touch points, to counterbalance all the other stuff we had to do, which was make a lot of tough calls.
Jason Hartman 17:20
So that’s a that’s a great touch point. I mean, that isn’t very scalable, but it is very cumulative. So very powerful, obviously, handwritten notes, etc. But what are some of the touch? I mean, you know, it times, Doug, you’ve definitely got to use touch points in a mass media format. I mean, CEOs have to do that. media personalities have to do it, politicians have to do it. Do you have any advice for mass media touchpoints, even if it’s someone holding a sales meeting for 10 employees, it doesn’t have to be a giant corporate leader, or political or celebrity figure. But just a touch point, when it’s not one on one. Well, I
Doug Conant 17:57
have some, some, some guiding thoughts on that. And I guess the most the most, I hear a couple of them. The first of all, make it personal. If you want people to take that work personally, and really lean into the work, they need to believe that they’re connecting with you in a more personal way. So in whatever communication you choose to have, whatever format it is, in fact, the more you have to lean into social media formats, the more you have to be ever more thoughtful about how you can make it personal. The second thing is that people can smell a rat a mile away, Don’t play games, you have to show up in an authentic way, as well as a personal way. And if you want to have credibility, over time, people have to believe that what you see is what you get, and that you’re going to do what you say you’re going to do. So you have to show up with great authenticity. If you if you if you make it personal, and you show up with great authenticity, those are kind of the those are the do’s to get into the game. I mean, that’s the ante, then you have to show up with confidence. If you really want to have influence with people over time, they have to believe that you know what you’re doing. You know, when my wife was in theater years ago, and she if you’re in theater, you work nights and weekends when other people aren’t working. So I would come home and have to help out with our children. And I have to cook dinner. Now they thought I was a person that have good character. And you know, and I was pretty good father, but they didn’t know that I couldn’t cook with a hoot. So I couldn’t count on me for dinner. I didn’t have a lot of credibility there. So it was a reminder to me that you got to if you really want to have influence with people, and you want to inspire confidence, you have to have two things. You have to have character. You have to show up in a personal and authentic way. But you also have to know what you’re doing. And if you don’t, you have to acknowledge that right. So as a leader, those are the things you need to bring to the Party, if you want to start to have impact with people in the moment, through touchpoints, you have to show up in a truly authentic way. And you have to know what you’re doing. Yeah,
Jason Hartman 20:10
character trust and competence trust both of those. So, so important. Are there any examples that you can think of in the mass media world, from leaders in whatever position, you know, media life, political life, corporate life, that have in a speech, for example, successfully used touchpoints in a in a positive way, and really connected and inspired their audience?
Doug Conant 20:34
Well, in my lifetime, we had one particular president who was good at connecting with people in and there were, there’s, there were a group of people that called him the great communicator. Yes, good old Ronald, Ronald Reagan, who could connect with people in a deeply personal way. He had enormous credibility with the everyday man and woman, he he brought, he brought the conversation down to a level that was approachable by those people. He showed up in an authentic way. And by and large, he led a life where he did what he said he was going to do. And those are simple rules to live by. But those that’s the cost of doing business today, we have a very jaundiced, jaded perspective of leaders today. And I think the challenge for leaders today, it’s to show up in a truly authentic way. And to and and Ronald Reagan would be the guy I would go to, who could touch people in a way that I haven’t seen many other political leaders, quite frankly, before or since connect with to me, he was the gold standard when it came to mass media.
Jason Hartman 21:45
And I couldn’t agree more. When I listened to his speeches, I literally sometimes get goosebumps. I mean, they’re he’s such an effective communicator. And I’d say that, you know, it’s before my time, but but jack kennedy also was quite inspiring like that. And so you’ve got both sides of the aisle there.
Doug Conant 22:04
Actually, I thought Bobby Kennedy, Bobby Kennedy, to me, was showing up in a more authentic way. chaklis cuz I grew up and was was incredibly inspiring. And we were going to go to the moon, and we were going to do extraordinary things. Bobby Kennedy, to me, was touching people in a much more personal and earnest way he was he, in my opinion, he was an amazing communicator. So it’s not about political parties. It’s about it’s about authenticity, and doing it in a way that connects with the hearts and minds of people. In our book on touchpoints, we say you got to do three things, you got to connect with the head, and the heart. And you’ve got to use your hands in terms of developing the practices to be more effective over time. So it’s head, heart and hands. And if you can do that on all three dimensions, you can connect with people in a meaningful way.
Jason Hartman 22:55
Sure, sure. And, you know, just one more thing on the political spectrum. So many people say that Clinton was very effective like that, and I never saw it in Clinton, I just didn’t get the greatness of Clinton’s charisma that some people comment on. would love your feedback on that. I just never saw it in him like everybody else.
Doug Conant 23:14
I, you know, I don’t piss on people. He was clearly a highly effective with a lot of people who found his earnest approach to conversation. it resonated with them. And and, you know, he clearly did connect with people. I mean, he was elected twice, and he had an approval rating. That was extraordinary. So, you know, I’m thinking, it would be hard to argue,
Jason Hartman 23:37
yeah, well, well, I know. And I, you know, I have friends who have met him who are critical of him and don’t like him politically, but say, you know, you meet that guy in person. And he’s, he’s just, he’s just a likable guy. So obviously, something was working here. I guess I gotta miss that one. But, but you know, when you guys said, these great, great communicators, going back to Reagan, any any thoughts on how reagan did it? I mean, I think he appeared to be a common, very relatable person. He used metaphor and visuals, humor, certainly humor, but humor seems to be a thing that is not available to everyone. Some people will have it and some don’t when it comes to humor, at least as far as I can see. But humor is a very good technique to open doors and create touch points, isn’t it?
Doug Conant 24:25
Well, I would connect it back to our touch point model. When when and we’ll use Reagan as the example. you’ve felt as if Reagan would come into every moment with this. I want the helpful kind of mindset, how can I help and people felt heard by him he did. say he would listen intently. And then he would frame issues in a way that made the people said okay, you got it. And then he just tried to make things a little better today than he did yesterday. And Ronald Reagan, I would argue, had a wonderful Continuous Improvement mindset with with with a very aspirational model for how the world could be, he was just trying to be helpful every day. And my observation is that was somewhat unmistakable. And people kind of looked at him in general, saying what you see is what you get, we got a just a regular guy who’s listening to us, who is showing that he understands the issues that we feel are important. And he’s trying to make things a little better today. And he’s with us. And I found that applying the same listen from advanced mindset, and and and bringing out How can I help mentality to the work? While Reagan was incredibly effective, I also saw that, quite frankly, with FDR, and and we can go beyond that you can also find that with Gandhi and Mother Teresa, and a variety of other leaders around the world. They all bring a How can I help mindset to the work that people grasp? They all are, what they are wonderful listeners, they make sure they understand the issue, and they just try and advance things in a way that works for them and authentically. And so I think it’s a simple model. It’s not a new model. But it’s this notion of how can I help Listen, frame advance? And then ask yourself, How did it go and try and do a little better today than you did yesterday. And in today’s chaotic times, I think it’s easier to go back to things that are elegantly simple, and get to the far side of complexity and get to things that are approachable, and you can actually bring to life in your everyday life. And that’s the power of touch points.
Jason Hartman 26:43
And they’re very, very important. Most definitely very important. You know, if you look at that in the high tech world, certainly Apple has brought simplicity. And I think people are craving that kind of simplicity. And that high touch, high touch thinking No, no question about it. Well, the website is Conan leadership.com. Of course, Doug, the book is available in all the usual places, I’m sure, right?
Doug Conant 27:04
Yes, absolutely. Amazon anywhere, anywhere, you know, you can’t miss it. And we also provide information on the website,
Jason Hartman 27:11
and New York Times and Wall Street Journal bestseller. Good work, I think it’s high time that the marketplace have have a book like touchpoints. And anything else you’d like to say in closing?
Doug Conant 27:21
Now? I guess the observation? Oh, yes, there is. I guess my observation is that we can all do better. And if we want to have a better world, we all have to lean into that notion. And we all have to try and do a little better today than we did yesterday, in terms of working shoulder to shoulder with people in our work community in our lives. To make things a little better. If we bring that continuous improvement mindset to the work with this notion of you know, we can do better, in my opinion, we will.
Jason Hartman 27:50
Fantastic. Well, Doug Conant, thank you so much for joining us today.
Doug Conant 27:53
All right. Best of luck to you, Jason. Thank you very much.
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Jason Hartman 28:27
Thank you for joining us today for the holistic survival show, protecting the people places and profits you care about in uncertain times. Be sure to listen to our creating wealth show, which focuses on exploiting the financial and wealth creation opportunities in today’s economy. Learn more at www dot Jason hartman.com or search Jason Hartman on iTunes. This show is produced by the Hartman media company offering very general guidelines and information. opinions of guests are their own and none of the content should be considered individual advice. If you require personalized advice, please consult an appropriate professional information deemed reliable but not guaranteed.