On this Flash Back Friday episode, Jason hosts economist Mike Norman to discuss Modern Monetary Theory. Mike goes over some common misconceptions about the US monetary system and the economy. He illustrates why he believes the US has an unlimited supply of capital. He explains the difference between inflation and growth.
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Jason Hartman 1:00
My pleasure. Welcome Mike Norman to the show. You may know his name. He’s been in the media quite a bit. He’s been on Fox for about 10 years. I believe he is a Currency Trader and an economist who is a proponent of mmt. That is modern monetary theory. Mike, welcome. How are you? I’m great.
Mike Norman 1:17
Jason, thank you for having me on your show.
Jason Hartman 1:19
It’s our pleasure. Give her listeners a sense of geography. Where are you located in New York?
Mike Norman 1:23
Yes, right in New York City in Manhattan, in the Big Apple good stuff that they
Jason Hartman 1:28
will tell us about mmt what is mmt
Mike Norman 1:31
mmt stands for modern monetary theory. And I wouldn’t even really classify it as a theory. It is a school of economic thought, and really a description of how our modern financial system and monetary system operates. And not just it’s not just applicable to the United States monetary system, but most of the industrialized world and what it says or what it explains is that That the governments, the states, the the authorities, which are the governments are the creators of money. The money is not linked to anything. There’s no gold standard. There’s no fixed exchange regime to some other currency. So basically, governments are the issuers of money and the non government, which is us the public, we are the takers of that money. And the government is not constrained in any way in its capacity to issue that money. I mean, we might put political constraints on ourselves like things like the debt ceiling, and if you want to talk about that, at some point, I will, but the government has the power to issue money. And the question is, then what gives the money and we call it fiat money, right money by decree. Congress just decides Hey, we’ll raise the debt ceiling or we’ll you know, we’ll we’ll ink we’ll give 700 billion to the military and boom, there it is. What gives the money value in a system like that. That would be the obvious question because people would think, well, if you’re just, you know, printing money, which is not really an accurate term, but if you want to use that that term printing money, then the money basically would have no value what imparts value to the money. And mmt explains that when governments levy taxes in any form, it is only it only accepts their currency, their money for the settlement of tax liabilities. I mean, you could read you can look at $1 bill, it says right on there, you know, for the payment of debts, all debts, public and private. It’s, it’s really the public the word public in that statement. That’s important because everybody knows, you know, if you have a debt to the government, let’s say you owe taxes, you have to pay that if you don’t pay that bad things could happen to you. So that creates a demand for the money or also things like, you know, fines and fees and licenses, that also creates demand for the money. But basically taxation is what imparts the man for the money. But let’s understand that because the government is the issuer, it does not need to collect taxes to spend, but there has to be taxes in some form in order to create demand for that money. So that that’s
Jason Hartman 4:23
basically Oh, good. Oh, that you said it. That’s a very interesting thing that you said. The tax system is required to create demand for the money, can you that’s a fascinating statement. Can you smoke that out a little bit more for us?
Mike Norman 4:37
Yeah. So for example, you know, when the government levies taxes, and, you know, we have a tax liability that we need to pay, we can only satisfy that tax liability in the government’s own currency in dollars, right. If you went down to the IRS, with, you know, a sack of gold or if you went down To the IRS with a bunch of Euro or a bunch of yen, the IRS would tell you or you went to the Treasury, let’s say the Treasury would tell you that’s really nice. You know, Jason, but why don’t you go explain to go cash that gold in for dollars and give us the dollars? Because that’s all we accept?
Jason Hartman 5:18
Yeah, go go silver gold to Peter Schiff and give us the dollars.
Mike Norman 5:21
Yeah, exactly.
Mike Norman 5:23
Even if so what happens is then the the demand and even if, you know, there may be some in the society who don’t have tax liabilities, but the fact that most of us do in one form or another, it creates a demand for the money the money is ubiquitous, it is used for transaction, right, and everybody holds a certain amount of it. And that is you know, basically how the system functions. So yeah, that that’s the way that taxation impacts the value into the money.
Jason Hartman 5:55
Yeah, that’s fascinating. So So as a thought experiment, then Mike like if if we Had if we had the the system we have now where the government, you know, issues the currency, and there’s you know there’s a central bank and they do their thing together that they do and we didn’t have an IRS, would it not work? I mean, it seems like it would still work,
Mike Norman 6:17
it would still work to a degree but without, without the government, let’s say draining away some of that currency in the form of taxation or in some other form, then then you’d have the the the value of the currency with lesson Okay, so when tax a tax is our Levy, you know, it creates that demand and that demand and keeps the value of the currency relatively stable. Now, of course, you know, things could fluctuate, but it’s within the control of the policymakers of the government as to really the value of that money I mean, higher taxation Generally causes the dollar to appreciate right because it becomes harder to get less taxation basically allows the currency to circulate more freely in the economy, you ordinarily have usually a stronger economy under that condition, people have more money to consume and invest. And so it can be regulated in that manner. I know a lot of people who are critical of this type of a system, let’s say people who would like to go back on a gold standard or some sort of a fixed exchange rate. The trade off in a system like that is under a gold standard, your money is finite, there is a finite quantity of money and effect how does a gold standard work? It limits the quantity of money, you need to have physical gold to back your money. So under a system like this, with which we have had, you know, various times throughout history and basically which has never really held up over long periods of time. Because of the finite nature, you get people who are powerful, connected, influential, who tend to be able to accumulate larger amounts of the money. So when you have a fine, I think of a pizza, you only have a certain number of slices in there. You know, maybe the bigger people get more, and the smaller people get less under a system of fiat money. The government has the ability to make the national investments and spend in the public purpose to the degree that it wants. I mean, if you think about some of the the great things of our country take the interstate highway system that was created under President Eisenhower that was financed through deficit spending. So and that created real wealth, I mean, the roads and the highways of the nation, everything that you have everything that anyone has came to them in one form or another over a highway or a road. So you know, that’s real wealth, that’s real capital. That brings us the goods and services that we need to consume and use in our everyday lives, which define our level, our standard of living, very important to make those investments as a nation. When you have when you have a fixed monetary system, it becomes a little bit harder, you know, under the old system of the gold standard, the government needed gold to back the issuance of money. And if it did not have that goal, what we saw during the period of the 19th century was with such regularity, rolling depressions and recessions almost like clockwork, every 10 years, you know, just because there wasn’t enough money. There wasn’t enough money in circulation, there wasn’t enough liquidity to keep the economy sustained to keep people employed. And you had these crashes and they sort of boom and bust cycles with unbelievable regularity during the 19th century when we were on the gold standard.
Jason Hartman 10:07
So are the cycles less severe or less regular now than they were back then? I mean, were they because because back then you have this fixed system, this kind of closed system, if you will, and we don’t have that anymore. So was it was it worse? I mean, people would complain that there are cycles now, and it’s bad, but was it worse than
Mike Norman 10:27
it was it was much worse than it was much worse than I think between, you know, the early 1800s till about 1913. With the establishment of the Fed, you know, we probably went through a dozen or more major depressions really, I mean, they we can’t even really call them recessions, they were major depression. What’s interesting too, is that if you look at think it was a motivator 1907 the Panic of 1907 At that time, it was a pre Federal Reserve. And we’ll get into talking about the Fed in a second. But that was a pre Federal Reserve, when we had that panic. Some of the big finance ears of the time like JP Morgan, and some of the bigger banks here in New York, they got together in concert to kind of support the economy to pump liquidity into the economy. So in effect, even when we did not have the Fed, we saw the big actors in the financial system come together and behave almost like a central bank. It was like a natural instinct to do that to
Jason Hartman 11:37
be a lender of last resort, right? Yes, yes. Yeah. Very interesting. So this seems like a good argument for big government and, you know, more government intervention in the economy. And maybe it’s not so so please correct me if I’m wrong there. But if it is, then it seems like you know, why isn’t Bernie Sanders out there? Talking About mmt You know, it seems like it would support his position more than it would support like a Reagan position, for example,
Mike Norman 12:08
but Bernie Sanders, you know, he was quite close to the mmt line. As a matter of fact, his his chief economist, who I know this lady by the name of Stephanie Kelton, she’s a professor at University of Missouri, Kansas City. And that’s like a hotbed of mmt teaching and thought, I mean, she was his chief economist, you know, Bernie went only so far with the mmt proposals and ideas but yeah, he went off course I mean, he did talk about he did say things unfortunately I thought which you know, were not correct but things about you know, he wanted to do like, let’s say free education, but if we give it too much, it’s going to bankrupt the country I want to Medicare for all he’s still proposing Medicare for all which I think is a fantastic idea. I think that’s what most people in America want. But you know, you don’t say things like it’s going to bankrupt the country because that’s just patently false. Um, you cannot I mean, when you talk about a currency issuing nation that spends its own money and where all of its obligations, and by the way, what is the obligation? When we talk about debt, the United States debt? What is that right? People don’t really have an understanding of what that is. The only liability The only obligation The only promise that the government makes to you to anyone is that it will accept its own currency for the payment and settlement of tax liabilities. And that is a promise that it can always keep. All right. That’s not like a promise of well, we will pay you back in gold because if that under those conditions, there could arise a situation where the government was insolvent or had an inability to pay you back in gold. But the only true promise the only true debt that the government makes to anybody is that it will accept its own currency as the payment for the payment of taxes for the settlement of tax liabilities. And that’s a promise that it can always keep. You know, when we talk about the national debt, it is not a debt in the sense that most people think of debt like, you know, if you have a debt to the bank or whatever, to a creditor, you are not an issuer of currency, you need to get that money or whatever it is to satisfy that debt. All right, you have to physically have that to satisfy the debt. The 20 trillion that we hear all the time that’s thrown around, that is the sum total of all the spending of the United States government since 1789. Since our creation, minus all the money that was taken away in taxes. So like, whatever the government spent over that, whatever, you know, to 128 years or something like that, minus what was taken away 20 trillion is held by the citizens and people around the world. So that is not what we owe. That is what we own. Okay, that’s money we hold on to right now, which has not been turned back in for the payment of taxes and it might never be turned back in for the payment of taxes. That is part of our wealth. That is not a debt. And that wealth is held in the form of a government security simply because the government security What is it government security, what is it Treasury, a treasury is a US dollar that pays some interest. They’re interchangeable. Alright, so we it’s like it’s like if you have a checking account at the bank, and you want to earn some interest and you switch it into your savings account to earn some interest at Treasury is like a savings account of the US government denominated in its own money. So the debt that’s why all these people, these Doomsday predictors, people like Schiff, where you mentioned, we’ve been talking for so many years, years and years,
Jason Hartman 16:10
wrong and wrong,
Mike Norman 16:12
and it’s why it’s never happened. Okay? The reason why it’s never happened is because it is not a debt in the sense that everyone thinks it’s a debt where the government has to go get that resource to pay it back. It is the monopoly issuer of that resource, and it could never be insolvent in its own currency. So basically, it’s $20 trillion dollars that people hold are here and around the world. That is part of their net wealth, that is part of their financial wealth.
Jason Hartman 16:42
Right. So does this only work for the US having a reserve currency, or does it work for everyone? Can every country do this simultaneously? Because it seems like the US is obviously in a very enviable position. You know, when you talk about the treasuries I mean, other countries have treasuries. So China has her treasuries. And, and you seem to be saying, well, we can we never need to default in our own currency because all the Treasury is, is that instrument that says will, you know, turn it into dollars and or it is dollars really pay interest? I mean, how does it work on a global scale?
Mike Norman 17:19
And, you know, this is this is another thing that we hear all the time that oh, you know, China’s financing us and this and that, or Japan, they hold all our debt. You got to understand, like, you know, what comes first the chicken or the egg, you could only buy a treasury with dollars, okay? The dollars have to exist first before anyone can buy a treasury. Try to understand this concept. You know, it’s not that hard to understand, but it’s like filling up a swimming pool. If you want to drain a swimming pool. You got to fill it up first, right? So if you want to sell treasuries if the government wants to sell treasuries, that dollars have to exist first to be able to buy them. So the fact of the matter is China is not financing the US by buying treasuries, China, we are literally financing China by buying their goods, which causes them to earn dollars, and then they take those dollars and just shift them over into an account called a treasury. So the dollars have to exist first, how do the dollars exist? The government spends the dollars into existence through its spending activity. Okay. When the when the government spends, it literally creates the dollars in the system. And those are the dollars that are used to buy treasuries. So it’s not like, hey, what if nobody bought our treasuries that could never happen because the dollars exist before the treasuries can ever be created and sold. So somebody is going to buy it. Because it pays an interest rate right there’s always an
Jason Hartman 19:03
entire the Treasury it’s better for them to own the treasuries than the dollars because they’re gonna get yeah they greater interest on
Mike Norman 19:11
it a little bit more you know normally
Jason Hartman 19:14
okay so the dollars existed first you
Mike Norman 19:17
understand that right this is very important because it this is this is actually a simple concept but it goes most people don’t you know go they don’t they don’t get it or they don’t think about it first. And the same thing let’s say this to the same thing with taxation, like people say, well, it’s my tax dollars that are paying for everything okay? Like Social Security, it’s my tax but it’s not because look, you cannot eat and let’s go back to the very original concept, right? You cannot even pay your taxes until you have the dollars to pay them right and where the dollars come from. The government has to spend the dollars into the economy first has to create the dollars for you to even have The dollar to pay your taxes.
Jason Hartman 20:02
No. Yeah, it’s draining. If you got to fill the pool before you drain it, I get it. That’s it. Yeah. This is a very interesting theory. Mike, I got to tell you I wrote maybe not theory, as you say, but actual descriptions. Yeah, fair, that’s a description is a better word. But it just makes me think, Well, why don’t we just raise taxes more? And why don’t we just spend more money into the economy and everything will be even better? No.
Mike Norman 20:26
It’s getting into ideology. It’s getting into belief. It’s getting into politics. You know, let’s face it, Jason, and I’m sure you would agree with me on this. Most people they’re going to listen to me talking to you. And they’re going to say this guy, Mike Norman is crazy. He doesn’t know what we’re talking about. I write out a check to the IRS every year and I pay my taxes and that’s what is the government is using the spin this Mike Norman is an idiot. He’s crazy. So you see what I’m saying? It’s a belief system. Is it This belief system goes back to the days when we were on a gold standard on a go under a gold standard or a fixed exchange regime where like we our money is fixed to some other currency at some rate of exchange, and we need to have that currency all the time. It’s sort of backing our own money. Under those conditions which have existed for a long time over history, all of the things that we fear, like going bankrupt and insolvency and not having enough money, all those things could happen. Okay. But we went off of that. I mean, in 1971, we broke up we really got off of that in 1933. FDR took us off the gold standard domestically, but the mentality is still there. You know, I’ll tell you about a very interesting exchange that happened. I think it was back in 2005. When ron paul congressmen, father of Rand Paul, he was still in Congress. He was in a hearing without Alan Greenspan who was the chairman of the Federal Reserve at the time. And Ron Paul, you know, he’s a big gold bug this Ron Paul, he’s always like, we got to go back on the gold standard. We got to go back on the good. So he asked Greenspan Don’t you think we ought to go back on the gold standard? And here’s what Greenspan said. He said, No, I don’t think so. Because anyway, we still behave as if we are, you get that we still act, even though we have unlimited capacity to make the investments, the National investments, we rebuild our infrastructure, right? Do health care, on education, on basic science and research, all the things that that make a great country and a high standard of living, we have the capacity to do that. And by the, by the way, none of that is inflationary, because when you’re creating new capital, when you’re creating real things stuff, but a new supply a greater supply of things, you know, then The prices stay level. I mean, they don’t go off, right? If you create more output, even if you even if it takes more money, if more output is created at the same time, right, the supply grows, the price is not going to go up. Everybody understands supply and demand. If there’s more supply of whatever bananas in the supermarket, what happens? The price goes down, it doesn’t go off. Right? So we have that capacity. But you ask the question, Well, why don’t we just do it? We don’t just do it. Because our deeply held beliefs. Most people and I’m sure if you go around and you ask people and people are going to, they’re going to comment on this interview, they’re going to write in, they’re going to call it whatever. And they’re going to say this guy, Mike’s normal Mike Norman’s crazy, but they’re going to say that because they’re still stuck, sort of in that gold standard mentality when they think, you know, we’re digging our money up out of the ground. And hey, if we’re not taking our money up out of the ground, then we’re going to end up being why Mr. German Or Zimbabwe, and both of those analogies are completely inapplicable to our situation. I mean, you’re talking about very rare rare. You want to know something? Look at Japan. You asked me before, you know, do you have to be Japan’s got mountains of
Jason Hartman 24:14
debt, right? And it’s it’s all Yeah,
Mike Norman 24:16
right. Japan has literally printed quadrillions of yen, we’re not even trillions quads that you can’t even imagine the number and they’re dying to get a little bit of inflation. They’re like, we want some inflation. Why can’t we get because they’re not the money just be just piling up in the banking system. It’s not really being spent into use. Okay. Same thing like remember what happened here in the financial crash in 2007 to 2009. And the Fed started to engage in all these extraordinary monetary operations You
Jason Hartman 24:53
know, this Operation Twist, yeah, QE QE
Mike Norman 24:57
and all these people like Schiff again, and everybody And even let me tell you even some very, very well known, you know, economists, they were predicting inflation and even hyperinflation at the time I said, it’s never going to happen. It’s never going to happen because what the Fed was doing really was a gigantic asset swap, right? They were they were taking these high yielding assets treasuries out of the economy. They were buying it for themselves. So they was stripping away that income. And they were replacing it with reserves in the banking system, which earned nothing. And you could actually see in that period of time, that income, interest income, one’s way down, and it was not an insignificant amount. It was like 200 billion was sucked out of the economy taken away. That’s like a gigantic tax. So when people thought, oh, there’s going to be hyperinflation, they didn’t understand that what the Fed was actually doing was like a gigantic take On the economy, and that’s why we never even when all that trillions that they printed whatever you want to say, we never even got economic growth above 3% annually, we kind of crawled along the whole time, you know, because that’s exactly what happened. And now, when they’re going to do the reverse, and everybody’s freaking out, because oh my god, they’re gonna, they’re gonna sell their mountain of treasure. No, they’re not. They’re going to replace those high yielding assets back into the economy, and take away the low paying reserves. So this is actually going to be a little bit more inflationary, or way more inflationary, I should say. Then their activities and their operations from 2007. Until what 2015 Yeah, very,
Jason Hartman 26:47
very interesting. You know, Mike, just to kind of wrap things up. First of all, you have a YouTube channel. Where can people find out?
Mike Norman 26:54
Yeah, just YouTube slash Michael Norman.
Jason Hartman 26:56
Okay. Michael Norman. It would seem like your video of the future. I just got to ask you what you think is like coming next, you know, your view of the future sounds pretty optimistic. I’m thinking, right? I mean, you believe in the system we have and it seems to be serving us. Well,
Mike Norman 27:12
it sounds like right? Well, monetarily, I would love to see policy move or embrace mmt where we’re not the heir. And I think, you know, in spite of all of our efforts in the mmt community, over the years, you know, we still have a long way to go to get it into higher policy circles. So, from an economic or a monetary standpoint, you know, we’re moving slowly in the right direction, but it’s agonizingly slow from a geopolitical standpoint. And you know, we could have a whole other show on this, but I’m very concerned because, you know, the wars the Russia phobia which, which I think is just insanity and dangerous. The Deep State situation that we have going on here. I mean, that’s that’s a whole separate worry. But from from an economic point of view, I’m frustrated, let me be honest, I’m frustrated because these are not hard concepts to grasp. And I thought after the crash, you know, we’d start to see more of this infiltrate into the policy level. But it’s been a it’s been a tough slog, you know, and I do everything every day to try to get these concepts and these ideas out there. And I’m not going to stop and I appreciate you know, you have me on the show to talk about it.
Jason Hartman 28:36
Yeah. Fascinating talk. I mean, you know, few few of my guests have anything really kind of new to say about this stuff. It’s kind of like rehashing the same thing over and over and, you know, they all have a different take on it and so forth. I know you’re not you’re definitely not a gold bug. Neither am I. You’re probably not a cryptocurrency guy. Neither am I. But stop me when I’m wrong about any of these. What do you think like Harry? dent for example, you know, he would have said that Japan problems a demographic problem, you know, for example, yeah, his
Mike Norman 29:05
thing his big thing is demographics. Right? Yeah. Right. You know, I don’t what, to me that the Japan problem in a nutshell is that they have sort of embrace this junk Western economics where they have convinced themselves that, you know, they’re out of money. You know, it’s a fascinating thing to watch. I mean, here is a monopolist sovereign currency issuing nation, which has all the power and capacity and ability in the world to lift itself up. It’s been, what, 25 years in this kind of perpetual recession, and all they want to do is try to create inflation, you know, you want growth, okay? There’s a difference between inflation and growth. That’s another thing like these economists, they’re like, they’re like begging or you know, so desirous of inflation, you want growth, okay. You don’t just want prices to go up. Because they’re down now you want prices to stay down, but you want growth, there’s a difference. and Japan has the ability to do that. But you know, if you listen to their leadership if you listen to their leaders both in the in the central bank and also, you know, all their Prime Minister Shinzo Avi now, it’s like, okay, we’re gonna spend a little bit more money, but we’re gonna raise taxes at the same time to pay for it. Like they don’t understand like, that’s zero, okay? If I if I’m the government, and if I spend $10, but at the same time, I’m taking $10 away from you in taxes. What is the net increase? It’s 00. So this this whole thing, and by the way, you asked me what, you know, am I sanguine about the outlook? Am I optimistic? You know, I happen to think, in this country. We’re gonna make the fatal mistake, and I see it coming. We’re gonna make the fatal mistake of passing a balanced budget amendment and basically a balanced budget amendment will put us that’ll make us like Europe with the Euro, where it will, it will create. Yeah, preclude our capacity to spend, and it’s going to make it really tough for a lot of people, ironically, probably a lot of people who think it’s a good thing. It’s so against their interest. Right.
Jason Hartman 31:21
Right. You know, I would, I would argue that those who are and I used to be when I didn’t know much in favor of a balanced budget amendment and like conceptually, you know, I would say, Well, I think the government spending too much, you know, which you address that already. Right. But, but I would say that right, I irresponsible government spending, I would be one of those people. But if try a balanced budget amendment in your own life, you know, and see if you can buy a house without going into some debt. Taking some risks. That’s what helps you grow leverage as a great tool. Of course, it needs to be respected, not abuse, but it’s a phenomenal tool. I mean, you can do you know, you can do that. 10 times faster if you get 90% leverage, right, right. So you know, it’s not all bad, that’s growth.
Mike Norman 32:06
And none of us by the way, not only is it not all bad, it’s good as you pointed out. In addition, none of us when we go into debt, we don’t issue our own money. So we don’t have that that additional benefit of the monopoly issuer that the issuer of the money the government, so they’re in an even better position. And by the way, it’s necessary, just because if there again, if they’re going to levy taxes on us, they have to create the dollars for us to be able to pay the taxes if not, then you have massive unemployment, you have a finite amount of money, but then you have people who you know, have tax liabilities, what happens you get kind of this this cannibalistic economy, I mean, it’s almost you can almost see it happening right now, like with a, you know, it leads to this kind of very acute income inequality that we’re seeing now. It leads to mal intent. Like, what are we doing now? Like, I can’t even drive my car here in New York, the roads are terrible, but yet, you know, there, there’s Wall Street’s going crazy. It’s all paper transaction, we need the real stuff. Because that’s the stuff we live on. Okay. The stuff we consume, the stuff we use every day that that is the definition of our standard of living. I mean, you know, trading stocks, you know, it’s nice to have a stock market, but to raise that up as the focal point of the economy when a lot of the rest of the economy needs attention needs investment, you know, with basically reducing our standard of living visa v the rest of the world, at least, Visa v. Other countries that are making those investments.
Jason Hartman 33:48
interesting discussion, very interesting. Well, I can’t wait to check out your YouTube channel and learn more about mmt. Mike Norman, thank you so much for joining us today. Really appreciate you Some some truly new ideas here. I mean, at least new for my show because the people that come on are either on the side of I hate the Fed, be a gold bug type type philosophy. And that one never seems to really work right? Or the other side of that equation, which is, you know, spend, spend, spend, and then you have an interesting approach. I really like the same empty stuff. I want to learn more about it. So thank you. Hi, Jason.
Mike Norman 34:23
Thanks so much for having me on. It was a pleasure. I really appreciate it talking to you.
Jason Hartman 34:29
Yep. Pleasure was all mine. Thanks, Mike.
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